Monday, December 15, 2008


See, I told ya!

Anti-Kidnapping Expert Kidnapped in Mexico

Apologies to Mr. Dylan. I have a musical background as well. But Kenny
Wayne Sheppherd's version just says it better now.

-- MCR

JO adds:

Sea Water Pumping at Saudi Oil Field
Relevance of Mainstream Sustainability to Energy Descent
The Fed's New Approach

The Fed must now turn to an approach called “quantitative easing,” because it involves injecting money into the economy [emphasis the blog's; is that like injecting steroids?] rather than aiming at an interest rate. The Fed has almost no experience with this approach.

“This is a whole new world,” said Richard Berner, chief economist at Morgan Stanley. “You don’t have a whole lot of historical precedent for knowing how this is going to work and what the unintended consequences could be.”

And on that reassuring note...

FAS Responds to DOE's Revision of FOIA Regulations
In view of Mike's clamoring for the release of the NEPDG records, this seems worth noting.

Sun in a Bottle
Book debunking cold fusion

Rice Farmer adds:


Rice Farmer said...

Mish has posted a cartoon which at a glance explains quantitative easing.

marketTrader2 said...

If you look at the 30yr Bond, you can see precisely when Quantitative Easing began. It fell off a shelf and re-priced much lower in yield. They are hoping to squeeze the yield to such a low undesirable area that private money flows out of bonds and into the Stock Market.
What we must realize is that currently U.S. Debt represents the biggest bubble yet, even bigger than housing, but created from the housing collapse. Now the global pool of money is again all on the same life raft and all it takes is enough good news to come back to the U.S. economy and pop -again. At that time, the U.S. Dollar -a bubble currently inflated too, will pop also and George Soros is waiting.
Once Government debt is no longer attractive in bad times at a 30 year yield of 3% and yields like these do not catch a bid until 15,20,25,30%, investment in America's general economy will be futile. Financially speaking, the game is up, the economic ladder in America will not need to be climbed by the citizens to get a return a loan shark gets, but only for those who have money left to invest. Too many will be needing money to buy food.
In my opinion, the end game will see a big run in inflation and then followed one last time by the biggest deflating tsunami dwarfing this current one.

Isaac L said...

I wish people in Southern California would stop driving.

The traffic has increased sharply since the drop in gasoline.

My neighbor and I still carpool.

Mark said...

Mike, Madoff was a warning. His 50 billion dollar fraud is a Wall street whistle blow. The press acts like Madoff is the only one. But his sons turned him in. If you watch zeitgeist addendum you see that we are 600 trillion in ponzi debt. Yes or no?
Am I correct in thinking this way?

fusion_is_fundamental said...

Isaac L said
"I wish people in Southern California would stop driving.
The traffic has increased sharply since the drop in gasoline.
My neighbor and I still carpool."

Isaac if you want something done you do it yourself. Why not start a public campaign to get people to carpool more. Not only does it save gas and emit less CO2 but it also brings people together with a sense of community.

NB Patton said...

Fusion is Fundemental;

In our economic model, (on a macro sense) the conservation of a non renewable resource you are consuming is rather silly. It might prolong the inevitable but it won't change it.

Jevons Paradox, wiki it.

(Now for the micro) That said, I try to use less because it keeps more money in my pocket.

Hey btw, what happened to fun_dE_mental? I liked it better that way I think. It was different, and I gave you the benefit of the doubt that it was intended... You know, like you were trying to say "Mind Fun" in Spanish or something.
So much for that! :)

stu said...

With the world falling apart, I've got a question to anyyone that cares to chime in...

What would you advise someone who's twenty-one, has yet to go to any college yet, and wants to start in January.

While I totally am for education and have a degree myself, I told this person that based on the events that are unfolding, that I would wait until at least June, to see where things go. This obviously wasn't recieved well and now I'm the bad guy for suggesting this person hold off on college for a while.

If civilization collapses, a college degree isn't going to do much for this person anyway. We will all be trying to survive and it will be a huge debt obligation of which no return can be obtained. TThat was my tinking at least. On top of that I thought it would be hard to get a loan, and keep it so that the degree program could be completed. Do you all think that was good advice from someone who sees the light, or should I have advised differently.

The person is my girlfriend and it was not recieved well. Just looking for some of the groups' opinions.

John said...

Have We Peaked Already?

sunrnr said...

Not everyone is getting it ....


fusion_is_fundamental said...

John said
"Have We Peaked Already?

John I wouldn't trust advice about physics from a financial website anymore than I would expect to learn the theory of relativity from George Bush.

Hubbert's theory is flawed as I have already posted here and in the previous threads.

agape wins said...

"Of much greater practical importance, the Fed bluntly announced that it would print as much money as necessary to revive the frozen credit markets and fight what is shaping up as the nation’s worst economic downturn since World War II." Quoted from:

We are already at the bottom, & headed into WW 3.5! Our Society has been restructured, and the benchmarks used to measure the economy have been "adjusted" 3
times since 1940! We are comparing Apples with Tomatoes,
It's much harder to find the Starving now, with all the "Social
Programs", public, & private. There were NO Homeless
Shelters, Unemployment, Food banks, or "Coats for Kids"!

My Question is still, " Where are those of "My Generation"? We are not hidden, ask someone you know, who lived without the unseen " Socialistic " programs, when the norm was " Those who will not Work, will not Eat"

Been There, Ate the Moldy Bread!

To: Stu.
Show her this post, tell her to find a Grandparent, or just someone over 70, ask what they think! In 6 or 8 months, the future will be much clearer, Don't walk off a Cliff! You are the
Future, don't make it a dead end.

bartonbythesea said...

Mike, looks like Vreeland has surfaced.

FTW admin said...

barton thx he's aware of it

LeoBro said...

Even if it's not broken, it ain't going anywhere: Big ship eats into the view

"The 720-foot Kauai ordinarily transports goods between Seattle and Hawaii but is temporarily laid up as a result of the global economic crisis."

MCR said...

For Stu

I would get all the education you can, while you can. I would make sure that it was practical and applicable. That doesn't just include trades but also English, basic and advanced math and physical sciences. Agriculture is always good.

Stay away from MBA programs and other old paradigm curricula.


fusion_is_fundamental said...

I'd just like to say to everyone who posted comments or questions on anything I said that I posted replies but for whatever reason they are not posted.

I don't know how blogger works so I don't know what the problem could be but I did reply.

John said...

John I wouldn't trust advice about physics from a financial website anymore than I would expect to learn the theory of relativity from George Bush.

Hubbert's theory is flawed as I have already posted here and in the previous threads.
Very well. But you yourself are neither a geologist, nor a physicist, nor a financial expert...

whistling grizzlybear said...

For Stu

I was going to say, "go to Costco or Walmart, buy a large box of condoms, and have a good time (at college)".

However, given that you were asking for your girlfriend, I will have to re-think this advice.

I think it's good to be in an academic environment, and take a whole bunch of classes to see what is fun & what you're good at. If it's a good hands-on school & you don't have to go into debt to get the degree.

I already have a BS in engineering & am taking classes at the local JC. In Flash, Agriculture (composting & soil science), Speech Recognition Software, and 3D Animation. I don't regret taking any of those classes. I reckon the Ag. classes are most useful in a collapse scenario.

If you personally wish to prepare for a collapse scenario, I think it's a mistake to expect friends to go along. It can be divisive, and soon enough they will say, "Jeez, you were right."

fusion_is_fundamental said...

John said
Re: John I wouldn't trust advice about physics from a financial website anymore than I would expect to learn the theory of relativity from George Bush.

Hubbert's theory is flawed as I have already posted here and in the previous threads.
Very well. But you yourself are neither a geologist, nor a physicist, nor a financial expert...

I am at least one of those you mentioned and since I commented about Hubbert's theory you can guess which ones.

Ruiz said...

I still can't make any good predictions as to when oil will rebound significantly.

Will it be as a result of demand shooting back up, or production falling? Maybe both, of course, but this plateau could go on for a few years yet, I'm thinking...and so will the depression.

So Mike, maybe you could talk more about your prediction of $100/barrel by mid-2009? That's the summer season, but if the economic fallout is as predicted, demand will be further down than it is today.

Lots of nations are filling their reserves at bargain prices right now. So there's a difference between 'necessary demand' and 'optional demand'. Therefore, even when the plateau comes to an end, it could be a while before necessary demand is unable to be fulfilled.

Rice Farmer said...

Never let it be said the Japanese don't have a sense of crisis. Front-page top headline of today's newspaper: "Domestic Auto Industry Implodes"

Ruiz said...

Fusion Is Fundamental:

Hubbert's Theory is flawed? I didn't think a theory could be flawed...only proven or disproven. Anyway, you probably mean disproven.

How has it been disproven?

Anne said...

This is off topic but germane in a very fundamental way, I believe. I've listed a link to an article that talks about learned helplessness, a subject that I have studied and attempted to help others recognize and mitigate.

As a private counselor for several years, I worked with people who were dealing with a diagnosis of terminal or life changing illness. My job, as I saw it, was to alleviate the sense of helplessness that often comes with such a diagnosis. I believed (and believe now) that feeling helpless was as detrimental to a persons health as the disease. Perhaps even more so. The ability to survive and thrive can be absolutely defeated by helplessness.

My point...No matter where each of us are in the "get prepared" scenario, no matter where on the "map" we stand, the most dangerous and ferocious enemy is an inch behind one's eyes. Many of the things being done in the world today are, by default or design, programming people to feel helpless. In my experience, the deeper the sense of helplessness, the more profound the inertia. Doing anything, let alone something constructive and forward moving, is avoided. And, BTW, one of the most successful tactics for avoidance, is distraction.

This learned, taught, programmed, helplessness may be what is preventing so many from hearing us. "I can't do anything about it, stop telling me this stuff".

So here we are, with Mike and Jenna, and our own collective experience and strength, because we want to be an ongoing source of empowerment for each other. And to stay on track, on message, and give an atta boy/girl when someone feels that it is all too much. And I am pretty certain, whether you are debt free and own a farm, are in the city trying to start a community garden, in an apartment growing tomatoes on the feel, at times, that it is too little too late. virtue of the fact that we are part of this communication, whether new or been around from the FTW days, we demonstrate that we are strong and we are not helpless.

Thank you all for being there. This is a most important lifeline.

Anne said...


I belive you asked on an earlier post how we could all continue to communicate if the internet was destroyed. I wonder how many folks here are ham radio operators or would be interested in becoming same? During Katrina, ham radio was one of the only reliable ways to communicate for a time. It is easy to learn and inexpensive. Any thoughts out there?

Anonymous said...

US says piracy resolution allows for air strikes in Somalia

sunrnr said...

"We don't have it, but let's pretend we do and say we're cutting production to bolster prices. No one will figure it out!"


William said...

I subscribed to FTW’s website somewhere in 2004 and read Mike’s book soon after. Mike, I can’t thank you enough for helping the rest of us make some sense out of this mess. My gratitude runs deep.

I admit I’m one of the many that hits this site four to five times a day hanging for the next update, but I have to remind myself that the groundwork has already been laid and we need to get to work. I too, can get caught up in speculation about what may come next and why. But when I step back and reflect on the bigger picture -- I realize the long-term trends are all but apparent and we would better serve ourselves by starting to transform our neighborhoods towards more sustainable practices in whatever way we think we can contribute.

I served in the US Army Medical Corps for four years, spent another three in IT support for Corporate America, and have worked for a New England University for eight years now. I’d like to believe I have another two to three years before Academia works towards half-staff, but when the day comes that students no longer believe a traditional degree will help them prosper or banks no longer have the liquidity to offer loans at reasonable rates, I’ll have to secure new employment.

That being said, I’m signing up for a hands-on course in Permaculture this summer and just recently picked up a copy of Bill Mollison’s Design Manual.

My hope is that we all shift our energy from speculative curiosity to building new systems that will get us through the next 2-4 years until we can fully deploy long-term solutions. We have many options before us, but inertia’s a bitch.

What are you doing to sustain yourself and your family?

Anonymous said...

Stu, my son is in a renowned 'school of foreign service' due to a mix of indoctrination from his father, and international travel with me. He called me two months into the program with a prepared pitch designed to convince me to 'let' him apply to an excellent philosophy program. Halfway through the first sentence I had to pull over (I was driving, and streaming tears of joy.) All I had to say besides 'do it' three thousand times was get as much as you can as fast as you can. It may be one of the most important skills in the future (he learns homesteading, farming, and food production here on my farm.)

Anne, I strive daily with a localization group I've formed where I live to empower them to make decisions for themselves, to question what they're told. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on authoritarianism (and is there a word to describe the indoctrination that creates followers of authoritarians?) Your post on helplessness struck a cord. I'm in a rural (now corporate agribusiness) former factory county and while the ones who have come to the group hear the call of sustainable localization, they have no idea what to do (even when I gently explain what needs doing, over and over - weekly meetings for six months now.) They can't break free of the order obeying mentality. I'm feeling sad that a lot of times I feel I don't (we don't) have the time to teach them. I know how to give orders (MCR, I used to work for Citi!!) and shed that life with revulsion years ago. How to balance teaching empowerment with the urgent need to get things done???

FTW admin said...

fusion is fundamental replied in part:

Ruiz said...
Fusion Is Fundamental:

Hubbert's Theory is flawed? I didn't think a theory could be flawed...only proven or disproven. Anyway, you probably mean disproven.

How has it been disproven?

No Ruiz I mean flawed as in garbage. It's not even worthy to be called a theory....
P.S. don't know if this will reach the blog since many comments don't seem to get through but at least I tried to reply.

fusion_is_fundamental said...

FTW Admin I'm sure you have your reasons but I just wanted to state I don't appreciate having my posted censored. You edited out the links I posted which would answer Ruiz's question and I'm sure you censored my comments int he past and many other people's comments. It seems the people here are not given the opportunity to have an honest discussion.

May I ask why?

fusion_is_fundamental said...

I have an announcement to make to everyone on the blog.

I will no longer be posting any comments because Jenna and/or Mike are purposely censoring and removing parts of my comments and I assume other people's comments. Such behavior calls into questions Mike's work on FTW and his 9/11 investigation.


DarkNetz said...

something i still ponder about to this day:

around summer of 2005, the newly appointed CEO of HP (Mark Hurd) had hosted a presentation for internal employees that was broadcast within the company-wide intranet for all HP employees to tune in...

his presentation sounded like it was literally taken word for word from "The Truth and Lies of 9/11" when Mike was explaining how a company's market capitalization is calculated...maybe it was just a coincidence but it sent a sudden chill up my spine...

it got me to thinking though about how many individuals, individuals like ceo's and vp's of big corporations, could there be, that have a clear understanding of world events like the map Mike has given us...

as ceo's, wouldn't they need this kind of information in order to project into the future so that they can keep corporations from going under?

Jacob said...

Not sure if there is anything to this, but you never know these days.

Citibank's computers down, blocking account info

Dave Crossland said...

Sue in the valley: "How to balance teaching empowerment with the urgent need to get things done???" I recommend the ex teacher John Taylor Gatto's works on teaching 100%. You can listen to many of his speeches at and his latest book is just out (heck, any of his books!). From New Society, the publisher of Rubicon :-)

Dave Crossland said...

George Monboit at The Guardian interviews the EIA about peak oil (video).

There are also two articles, one explaining the point of the video that the IEA says Peak Oil happens in 2020, and another more personal piece by Monboit that explains the context.

I was sad to read his concluding remarks, though:

"So what do we do? We could take to the hills, or we could hope and pray that Hirsch is wrong about the 20-year lead time, and begin a global crash programme today of fuel efficiency and electrification. In either case, the British government had better start drawing up some contingency plans."

Individualist survivalism, misplaced hope, and relying on remote central government planning? Transition Towns seems a much, much better response.

FTW admin said...

fusion is fundamental,

it's me, not mike. good-bye.

FTW admin said...

fusion is fundamental

i opened your second email first.

when i edit comments, they're posted with the proviso "so and so writes IN PART." that way readers know that the other comments have been posted in full.

i edited out your insulting dismissals of ftw and blog allies. i also omitted a long comment you sent in promoting nukes. too much time and space diverted to arguments that readers of this blog resolved long ago

Thorgal said...

Hi all,

I just would like to mention that ALL theories are "flawed". I am not sure what the original guy exactly meant by "flawed" but eventually, all theories are proven wrong. Nobody can claim that his/her theory has an infinite domain of validity. However, a theory can be evaluated within a limited domain and show a certain degree of validity.

This is something that is difficult for media reporters to grasp (and probably for a lot of other people). In science, a researcher "believing" in his/her own theory is not a real scientist. Instead, an honest researcher will be very skeptical by default ;)

sunrnr said...

Malaysia has apparently released Yazid Suffat, a US trained microbiologist with alledged ties to Al Qaeda.

The US maintains this fellow is also tied to the planning of 9/11.

Seems Malaysia claims he's been rehabilitiated and is no longer a threat. Really, the ran out of legal justification to hold him.

Or, is there some other agenda here? Too many layers to the looking glass.


FTW admin said...

bartonbythesea has left a new comment on your post "EVERYTHING IS BROKEN! See, I told ya! Anti-Kidna...":

Six Reasons Why Obama Appointing Monsanto's Buddy, Former Iowa Governor Vilsack, for USDA Head Would be a Terrible Idea

* Six Reasons Why Obama Appointing Monsanto's Buddy, Former Iowa Governor Vilsack, for USDA Head is a Terrible Idea
OCA, November 12, 2008

ftw admin addes: the rest of the email consists of the text of the article itself

FTW admin said...

bartonbythesea has left a new comment on your post "EVERYTHING IS BROKEN! See, I told ya! Anti-Kidna...":

Six Reasons Why Obama Appointing Monsanto's Buddy, Former Iowa Governor Vilsack, for USDA Head Would be a Terrible Idea

* Six Reasons Why Obama Appointing Monsanto's Buddy, Former Iowa Governor Vilsack, for USDA Head is a Terrible Idea
OCA, November 12, 2008

ftw admin addes: the rest of the email consists of the text of the article itself

Anne said...

Sue in the Valley

First, I must laud your efforts to educate your community and help them 'see the light'. You are doing what so many just ponder.

That closely for the small 'aha's' that may show up in a few people, and focus your energy there. The majority won't get it in time but the few that do are the ones that will help you with your lifeboat. The others will simply drain you, and then stand back and do nothing. The 80/20 rule is never more true than in a crisis.

Indoctrination, IMO, is the twin of learned helplessness. It is so deeply embedded in cultures and is part of what we take in everyday. Organized religions indoctrinate, as does the military, the television, the public schools, and on and on. And, one of the biggies from my experience, the current medical system has been very successful at indoctrinating people to become helpless, reliant on "other" and quite obedient. Those who are successfully indoctrinated are then quite malleable to whatever authority they have been taught to accept. And rejecting or defying that authority is nearly impossible for the majority that have spent a lifetime in that mindset. Authority, and the bow to it, also comes from the seemingly innocuousness of ordinary daily life. "It's always been this way...We had bad times before and good times always come back...Somebody will come up with a new and better mousetrap...". Perhaps it is basic survival instinct that keeps people doing what they've always done. Facing the reality of 'peak everything' is terrifying. And most of us would do anything to stop that fear. In my experience, fear is the strongest and most easily exploited emotion.

The exceptional people who go against the 'authority' in a positive way are the ones to support or follow, depending on circumstance. MCR is a perfect example of defying the authority (LAPD) to do the right thing...and help others. Jenna, also, going against the EPA about the air quality mess in NY after 911. Takes a lot of guts to stand at the front line...

So...what to do? The key, I think, is to watch for the few who are willing, even in a timid way, to ask a question, to reach even a wee bit beyond the norm,then give them a tool. You will know, I suspect, intuitively, if it should be a garden trowel or a D4 Cat. (Metaphor, folks, metaphor!)

And last...My own personal reminder when I get too far afield.....Pick your battles wisely. There are only so many you can fight, and only so many that are winnable. Pick wisely...and you can do much.


Mark said...

Stu, Mike, I love this site, I ain't telling anyone about this site, they need to catch up to come here hey?

I cant stop thinking about what Geoff Lawton PRI director said about walking into Agriculture Universities from Minnesota to Louisiana. All he could see were dead boring faces. Learning GMO's to control seeds. Have any of you stored seeds? I cant believe how many farmers out there do not have greenhouses anymore. Why bother if you have to keep purchasing seeds every year. So much more evidence for the need to act other than peak oil. I do not know how to get it all in here. But the first 2 are deforestation and erosion. Move on...I am blogging on an Atlanta water shed blog, they are being told that the water shortage is a drought. Peak oil leads to peak water from peak population. Do you all need that formula? It rocks hey? Michael Ruppert is my borameter of justice. Permaculture design is fun. Learning about bio char. One table spoon of bio char can fertilize 10 acres. How to make bio char? Swale composting layers of elements in pattern.

William, in the PDC manual, you will have to understand the elements and patterns section. Know that the dirrection of wind and fire winds are different, that rain flow and earth flow are all related. And you have to design according to those. The heart of permaculture are the swales, and they want to be big swales. Creating an angle of repose or 68 degrees slope, so that the nutrient density of soil can flow down to the food below. IF you have the angle of repose you can grow food forever without any inputs. Thats the heart and soul of bio dynamics.

Oh Michael Ruppert sir, I am Russell Berns from the entertainment industry. My father wrote twist and shout and brought Van Morrison to America. among many others. So I just wanted to introduce myself properly. Thats how I got into all these conventions. Amazing journey. I have been following you from the beginning. You are a knight. Like Lancelot to me man. You make my heart heavy. I know your journey.

Mike have you heard of corporation soles? Quail Springs permaculture has successfully achieved filing for CS. This is a way to be tax free like a church in your sustainable permaculture village.

I have a list of top institutions teaching this stuff on my site

Mark said...

If I do not get a D4 cat, I am going to be so bumbed out.

John said...

Global Trends 2025: A Transformed World
From Global Crisis to "Global Government"
US Intelligence: A Review of Global Trends 2025

NB Patton said...

You are awesome. I enjoyed your posts here. "Atta girl!". And YES i posted as well about establishing a HAM freq from us FTW bloggers for when this falls apart. Lets do it! I am ready to start testing whenever we pick a freq!

FWT Admin (Jenna Orkin):
I will make this as cordial as possible... *ahem*
Even though I don't agree with "Fusion is Fundamental" most of the time, I still value his participation on this blog because he is interesting and thought provoking.
Frankly, I feel something seriously needs to be done about your prolific censoring. Can't you open your mind a bit to the thoughts and ideas of other people? Diversity in a community is a STRENGTH not a weakness! You continue to damage this community's integrity with your hypocrisy! You really should be ashamed of yourself! Why are you so afraid of simple IDEAS? Its an IDEA, not a bullet speeding towards the cowering child in your brain... We don't need you to protect us from them, we are all capable of critical thought or we wouldn't be here. And your willingness to dismiss Fusion with a nonchalant "goodbye" was just classless. Way to provide that esprit de corps. *sigh*

Fusion is Fundamental:
Wow, I will miss you man. In your brief stint, I rarely agreed with you but dammit do I think you are a guy worth knowing! Thanks for participating and on behalf of the freedom, liberty, and transparency minded people here, I apologize.

Good luck to you and yours in your return to the wilderness.

Also, I would like to know where you are going to blog further, I think I may vote with my feet too and take my thoughts and ideas somewhere where I know they will be appreciated regardless of other opinions. I value you and others that have left because of Jenna, and if this doesn't change SOON I too will spend my time elsewhere.

I'm know she means a lot to you, and you are great friends but she has been censoring A LOT more than what could potentially harm the blog, "misinformation, racism, bigotry, etc.". I know, because I have been a victim. I even find myself wondering if this post will get through intact! If it doesn't I'll be done here too. Which I'm sure Jenna wouldn't mind! Do you care? Or will I too be dismissed with a simple "goodbye" and a firm one fingered salute?

FTW admin said...

thanks for the psychoanalysis, nb patton.

the 'good-bye' to fusion-is- fundamental was in response to his 'good-bye.'

Howlin_Dog said...

Really Really interesting article in light of the India - Pakistan tensions. Not exactly sure what it all means yet. i.e. who is doing who.. but it has to be important.

NB Patton said...

FTW Admin
What a typical response. Why don't you say what you really feel? I would actually respect you more for it and value your input. Or is that your way of telling me that you feel am I not worth your time?

And I know your goodbye was in response to his. I just happen to think his goodbye was warranted and well explained, and yours was a brainless knee-jerk.

Its a sad state of affairs when I must say so, but... Thanks for posting my comment in tact.

FTW admin said...

to nb patton

Why don't you say what you really feel?

ans: this isn't the place for it

Or is that your way of telling me that you feel am I not worth your time?

ans: i was addressing the question, not the person. i'm v interested in your comments esp about physics which i never studied

Ruiz said...

We need a comments policy, if only to save our heroic moderator some valuable time.

I'm game for a ban on links questioning Peak Oil, Darwinian evolution, gov. complicity in 9/11, global warming, etc.

However, mere words in argument against the aforementioned should be tolerated to the extent they deserve, especially if the username is recognised.

Dana said...


Hubert’s peak oil theory is flawed for 2 main reasons:

- it assumes that we know the exact amount of oil in the ground and how much of it we can extract; thus, it does not take into account technology which allows us to find and exploit new reserves; for example, in the 1900s we could not extract oil from offshore deposits nor did we know they exist, but in the 2000s offshore rigs are common & profitable; today, new discoveries are made & technology continues to advance & in the future, we will be able to extract oil from deeper waters & Arctic regions :

-second, it does not take price & demand into consideration in its analysis; it presumes that supply will fall and that will bring disaster; however when supply falls, the price rises which in turns makes investments in alternative energy sources profitable; an increase in price also shifts the demand curve down, meaning less oil is used (like now, although right now, the economic downturn also plays a role in the decreased demand).

“How it has been disproven?”
Mr. Hubbert used his theory in 1974 to predict that peak oil would occur in 1995.
However, oil not only did not peak in 1995 but the oil production climbed to more than double the rate initially projected.

Hope that answers your question. Have fun!

FTW admin said...

thank you greatly ruiz.

Anne said...

Jenna, if this is just adding fuel to the fire..toss it in the bin, Please!

Whoa there....OK....Adults in that corner, kids in the other one. Sort yourselves out, please.

I am chiming in here to reiterate a comment I made on an earlier post: "One of the most successful tactics for avoidance is distraction".

Distraction as a means of relieving tension or just honest escapism is healthy, positive, and probably essential to our survival and sanity. Think..a good book, a symphony, a walk in the woods, or whatever lets you step back and re-charge.

Distraction as a means of denial, to avoid digging into the things that must be done, is unhealthy and counterproductive. I am referring specifically to the "fusion is fundamental" stuff. Whether you find his position interesting or not, it was a distraction from what we are trying to do here. And as such, goes counter to the purpose of this blog. A difference of opinion is one thing, insults and disparaging remarks are not good for anyone. I hope most of us are above that sort of thing, and don't indulge in it often.

NB Patton: Thank you for the acknowledgement. It means a lot. But I must ask you this; Was the balance of your post written in frustration or did some one swipe your keyboard momentarily? You have written insightful and intelligent posts...whence the insults and slaps at Jenna? Her job is to keep this blog on it's designed track.

Perhaps those who wish to continue the FIF and such, can send email addy's to each other, or through the blog. Then, everybody's happy and we can stay focused here...on Peak Oil and getting ready for the times to come.

Distraction is good....but there is that cord of wood to split.........

Ruiz said...


Hubbert's peak theory is not dependent on timing for its accuracy.

None of your arguments are even directed at refuting his theory. Which I'm now unsure whether you even understand.

NB Patton said...


ans: this isn't the place for it

Why? Are you and I not members in good standing of this so called community? Are the other members so pious as to object to our conversation?
Personally, even if you think I'm a three-decker sauerkraut and toadstool sandwich, with arsenic sauce, I actually would be very interested in your perspective! I will probably learn something, or realize a current belief or idea of mine was flawed and modify or throw it out. Come to think of it, that transparent flow of ideas might just strengthen us all.

ans: i was addressing the question, not the person. i'm v interested in your comments esp about physics which i never studie

Well shucks,.. Thanks! And I truly do appreciate your additions very much too, I just happen to loathe the subtractions! ;)


I hit preview and saw Ruiz's comment and Jenna's reply.

I'm game for a ban on links questioning Peak Oil, Darwinian evolution, gov. complicity in 9/11, global warming, etc.

I VEHEMENTLY oppose and detest that attitude. I detest it SO much that I'm even open to the idea that I'm wrong about detesting it!
The moment you shut yourself out to ideas, you lose. Any community, ESPECIALLY ours should seek to NEVER pose a restriction on ANY ideas! Lest one day, someone label your ideas as taboo and cast you out as a leper too!
Never be lazy with, or opposed to, the critical processing of ideas available to you. Never be so married to any idea that you become afraid of the possibility that it is wrong or obsolete.
And they day you surrender those functions to someone else is the day you loose your individuality, your soul, your uniqueness, your liberty and your freedom...

Your reply to Ruiz disheartens me further.

FTW Bloggers:
This "community" of ALL communities should be the first to spot and oppose this philosophy WHEREVER it may exsist! How can we stand for government transparency and be screaming to the world to embrace our ideas if we close ourselves off to ideas too!? Are we not then committing the same blunder? Damn I am getting tired of arguing this point to a crowd that should already get it...

Why are we all here? For the sycophantic stroking of ideas we already have? Or are we here to be enlightened? If it is the former, just let me know so I can stop wasting my time here and spend it somewhere with people interested in enlightenment and truth.
And if it is enlightenment that we seek here, then HOW can we EVER possibly be enlightened if we limit ourselves to the path our current ideas have predetermined for us? The we have lost before we have even begun.

Go quickly now, and report me to the ministry of truth before I infect someone else with my thought crimes.

businessman said...

Dana...I don't see anything in your analysis that disproves Hubbert's Peak. Your analysis and conclusions seem to rest on an idea similar to "since we've always discovered new sources of petroleum in the past and our technology to drill for petroleum has always improved, this will continue to happen in the future so there's really nothing to be concerned about."

So if you're going to prove to the people in this Blog that Hubbert was not right, you'll need to come up with a much stronger argument with better underlying premises than what you've already presented to us.

Because as of right now, Hubbert's argument for Peak Oil is much stronger than your own argument against it.

stu said...

Thanks guys for the feedback to my question about education. I know that many here are much older and wiser than me, and probably have more resources to prepare and to take it while you can get it.

I guess my biggest concerns for my girlfriend is the fact that collapse will occur before she is even halfway thru her program. I had the misfortune of being severely injured in a boating accident the summer before my senior year of high school. I was doing great, an accounting major, and was on the dean's list at one of the top five business schools in the country. My world fell out from underneath me as I was almost paralyzed in this accident (cir. 2000. I was on the strongest pain medicine they make for six years and began to think it would never get better, and all my hopes and dreams would never be realized.

I almost thru in the towel, but by some miracle, was saved through a final surgery that enabled me to finally be able to get off all the pain meds and get my life back. I learned alot about myself thru that experience and know now that there is nothing that I cannot overcome.

But because I was injured just 24 hours short of graduating with honors, my career prospects were severely limited because I didn't have that magic piece of paper. Never mind the fact that I had worked extensively in my family's business managing millions of dollars worth of assets.

I guess what I saw happening to her, was the same thing that happened to me. Some education, but no degree... no good...

Anyway, thanks to everyone for their input. Since my last post, the love of my life has left me, and I think that my advise on education had much to do with it, and I'm trying to repair the damage. Times are tough enough, and now more than ever I realize how much I love her. Anyways, thanks again.

FTW admin said...


you sound pretty amazing. maybe your message was too bleak for her. timing is key. consider holding your fire until she's ready to listen and don't get so caught up in your message that you forget to check how it's going over.

also, not finishing one's degree may turn out to be inconsequential in the scheme of things.

stu said...

I just had an idea cross my mind, and wanted to throw it up here to see what some of you thought about building a community that is based on the future that we face.

My grandfather started out as a second or third generation farmer in Michigan. He later moved on into the insurance business before finally settling on developing manufactured housing communities in the early 70's in central Forida that were "adult" communities specifically tailored towards retirees.

The next step was in Ohio, where he and my father built some rural communities that were very nice and had tons of extra undeveloped land that could be used for farming. In fact, as a youngster, my dad and grandfather planted a garden one year and I sold produce out at the entrance to the community.

From there, they undertook their largest project in Cen. Florda and developed a community with over 900 lots, a championship golf course, and a 25,000 ft. clubhouse was named the manufactured housing community of the year about a decade ago. The people are are very close and very involved in the community which is a great start.

While I love to golf, the land could instead be used to produce food that would sustain the entire community.

It's my opinion that building a community like the one mentioned above could be a great way to get the manpower needed to work the fields in a post peak world, while also having the foundations in place for a great community of like-minded individuals all with the same vested interests.

businessman said...

Anne...We needed you in here several months ago when we had a woman constantly venting her anger at everyone in here...loaded with multiple four-letter words in every sentence. That's when the subject of Jenna exercising her discretion in editing our posts was first discussed...;)

Stu...Hang in there. We all go through difficulties and some people more than others. Fourteen years ago I lost five members of my immediate family within a few years of each other, and I was completely devastated. But my life is now in much better condition than it ever was back then, and the devastation really formed the foundation for me to make it all happen.

Oftentimes when we look back on the most difficult experiences of our lives, they prove to have been the seeds to grow into a much deeper, more enriching life than we ever imagined for ourselves.

Dana said...

Businessman & Ruiz:

At least I put a documented argument out there.
You, on the other hand, did not bring anything to support your theory/belief. Basically, your argument is "trust me, I know what I'm saying, you don't, but I have no idea why...".
Anyone with the slightest critical thinking skills, would rend this type of argument, brainwash or incompetence to sustain their opinions.
I don't mean to offend you but no evidence is no evidence...

And, if you are right & peak oil is here, why is the oil selling for less than $40 a barrel?
Apparently you don't know how to answer that without disproving the peak oil scarecrow...

Jeff said...
This article shows that the situation we are facing is catching on to alot more people.

fleetfox said...

Fusion is FUBAR. If someone wants to explain peak oil/peak everything to those who don't comprehend it, exchange e-mail addresses as Anne suggested. Have a ball. This is a Peak Oil Blog after all. Start your own blog. No one is saying you can't discuss these subjects freely. You can, this just isn't the place. It's an overt distraction for the purpose of being antagonistic. I back Jenna on this one.

Ruiz said...

NB Patton

I'm arguing that your ideals (which are shared by most here) must give way to practicality and focus.

As such, I proposed banning certain links *while allowing most comments*

We can allow constructive debate with any critic who can argue against one of our central 'tenets' in their own words, and is persuasive enough to convince readers to google further on their own initiative.

But if you allow everything, in particular links and futile debate, this rapidly ceases to be a special place. As the blog continues to grow, the question of FOCUS will become ever more critical.

sonofafarmer said...

To me, this next phase of life, beginning NOW, is about sustainability and spiritual transformation.
On the farm, we're piecing together a 10-ton oil press right NOW. I'll be using our cottonseed and sunflower seed to make biodiesel from now on. Also looking at alternative crops that will do well here where we average 17 inches of rain per year.
Also, harvesting rainwater is a huge aspect of sustainability I haven't seen much of in agriculture or life in general. Our house and shop can catch up to 5,000 gallons on a two-inch rain. Our barn can catch 6,000 gallons on one-inch of rain. I've saved over 60,000 gallons of well water in a little over 18 months. That will triple as soon as the rest of the tanks are in place. Make sure you use screens, etc. to filter. It can get as elaborate as you want. In West Texas, it is not unusual to go two-three months with less than .25 inches of rain. This is where the desert gave birth to the prairie. Also, if your soil is full of life and not poisons, you can sustain droughts longer (as many of you already know.)
No man is as free as the man who can provide healthy food, water, and shelter for his family without ever leaving home.
Thanks again, Mike and Jenna. Take heart as we all continue to prepare, prepare, prepare.

RanD said...

Oh my goodness what wonderful dialogue! What wonderful hearts and minds!This site is magnificent!

Yeah, I'll be missing you if you never show your face around here again, Mr fusion_is_fundamental; while I also fully understand and appreciate where you're coming from too, Jenna. Managing a site like FTW continuously proves itself to be requires mental-spiritual savvy, energy, and devotion of the highest order. And I certainly appreciate and trust your judgment abilities on whether to publish my comments whenever I might send them your way. Thanks!

My love to you both and to all FTW participants as well.

NB Patton said...

All you have proven is your total lack of understanding in regards to Hubbert's Theory. No big deal, just go learn.

You asked:
"Was the balance of your post written in frustration or did some one swipe your keyboard momentarily? You have written insightful and intelligent posts...whence the insults and slaps at Jenna? Her job is to keep this blog on it's designed track."

So, sycophantic stroking of only the ideas we already have? Got it, thanks for being clear on that. And I am not being sarcastic, I truly do respect your opinion and perspective. And if that sort of thing is what you want out of this blog, who am I to say its wrong? Its just not what I am looking for. And If the majority feel the same way, perhaps I am wasting every bodies time, including my own. Thanks for the discussion and sharing your ideas Anne. Even in our differing opinions here I think you are someone I could learn a lot from. Which is why I think defending the free reign and expression of ideas is worth the "distraction", without that, perhaps I wont learn those things from you. Maybe your ideas will be the next to be placed on the "banned list".
Now In regards to the things I said to Jenna, they were truly what I felt at the moment. What would you respect more, my conformity to what others want of me or my honesty? Allow me to ask, what specifically did you disagree with? I think you have an interesting perspective that I can learn from.

You Said:
"Anne...We needed you in here several months ago when we had a woman constantly venting her anger at everyone in here...loaded with multiple four-letter words in every sentence. That's when the subject of Jenna exercising her discretion in editing our posts was first discussed...;)"

Lara B. is one of the most brilliant, thought provoking, and mentally liberated people I know. It saddens me greatly that this blog has rejected her and her opinions. That said, I happen to think Lara's approach, particularly with her use of language, just doesn't work for me. Not because I am being untrue to myself, but because I truly do think words are like tools, and ones vocabulary a tool box. Just like tools have "appropriate" uses, so do words. I aspire to use words accordingly. But that doesn't make me "right" (or effective:) it is just my approach! Lara happens to use sledgehammers to loosen the most delicate of screws. That works for HER, and she tells it like she sees it at all times and to everyone. She is TRUE to her self bar NONE and that very fact makes her an absolutely amazing individual that I feel is very much worth knowing, and that this world needs much much more of. She is on a very lonely list of people I trust without having actually met.

Ask yourselves, what do you respect more? Someone who is honest and opposes your views, or someone who lies and shares your views?

I just refreshed and saw the new posts, I will answer later today.

FTW admin said...

lara has not been barred tho' not all her comments have been published.

fyi to the person who alluded to this: anne is a longstanding friend of ftw and the blog

kiki said...

Why are we arguing? What is the purpose? Is it pure distraction? Is it anxiousness and fright? Is it to hear ourselves talk, assuring us we still exist? Our minds are fertile soil and will grow whatever ideas and feelings we plant and nurture. In the spirit of community, may I suggest we all retire to the dinner table for a feast in friendship and camaraderie along with the great food I’ve prepared? Perhaps with the interlude, we can gather our structured thoughts, harness our feelings and share what we have to offer without the angst, over dessert? Every little bit of what each of us enjoy should be taking on a special flavor when we have no idea how soon those joys will be gone. I appreciate all of you and would enjoy your company at ‘dinner’. (passing glasses of wine around the room) ……………and here is a smile, offered in friendship, for each of you as an appetizer. 

businessman said...

Dana...It's clear you don't understand Peak Oil and haven't really studied it much. If you had you wouldn't even be asking such questions because you'd already know the answers to them.

I can understand someone participating in here wanting to learn and understand more about Peak Oil because they don't know very much about it already. But you on the other hand seem to have learned just a little about it and have decided that it simply can't be true, and that you must speak out against the theory altogether. And your arguments don't hold water.

The theory stands for itself and I'm not going to reiterate the arguments in favor of it because they are widely available all over the Internet, and most everyone in here already knows them. If you want to learn more about the theory I suggest you do some research on it. And if you don't want to learn more about the theory and still want to argue against it anyway, you can do that also.

FTW admin said...

that was delicious, kiki

RayLeeUS said...

Flawed theories? Well, now that you mention it, Newton's laws of physics were flawed - in fact, they're not even correct (i.e. 100% accurate). But they sure as hell were close enough to the truth for humans to be able to rely on them to create the industrial revolution and millions of technological advancements. If it makes you feel good to denegrate Newton for his failures, then by all means go for it. You must be enough of an expert in your own mind.

All of this nitpicking is fine and dandy. But the basic point is - empirical data shows that oil field production rises and falls on a bell curve. In the aggregate you need more, larger fields in the upward direction, or at least at the plateau, then you do in the aggregate of decline - otherwise you will have global peak - at least temporarily until the permanent one comes. That is, unless you've got a working plan on how to create oil out of thin air (maybe the Fed can you help you with that).

Isn't that the essence of Hubbert's theory? Sure, a ton of variable factors went into his prediction of global peak of 1995 (pardon me if that's not the correct date), including possibly basic human error - but certainly this was an educated guess. I don't believe Hubbert ever asserted he knew how much oil was in the ground. To say that the failure to come true for an educated guess based on an underlying theory logically disproves the theory as a whole is nonsensical. It is faulty logic, unscientific, and quite possibly plain old disingenuous.

Even with the minimal amount of research and cross-referencing that most of the serious readers have done, it is clear that there is not enough new oil field production going online to compensate for the decline that is already documented, what to speak of the likely decline that has not been admitted but for which there is strong evidence. Does anyone have evidence that oil fields are beginning to decline in wider, longer slopes? I haven't heard of it. Does anyone have evidence that large new fields have been found and will come on line to compensate for the decline that's already documented? I haven't heard of it. Please enlighten us all.

Otherwise, simply deal with the fact at hand which is that production cannot increase without these new fields and the only mitigating factor in the equation is demand destruction.

Bringing in the current price of oil into the argument is also nonsensical. Oil could be priced at $200 a barrell or $20 a barrell right now, and we almost wouldn't be surprised. The price by itself wouldn't tell us anything about what's really going on.

If you're still convinced that oil will magically appear when we need it, then simply sit back and wait. Let the chicken littles make fools of themselves, what have you got to lose? And if oil production never, ever increases beyond what was produced in 2007 or 2008, and the price stays reasonable because so much demand has been destroyed (despite predictions of unprecedented increases of demand) then give yourself a pat on the back, Bravo! You are the proud believer of a demand destruction sleight-of-hand posing as normal economic growth and contraction. Meanwhile, silly governments and international agencies are beginning to overtly take the issue seriously and acknowledge peak as a real crisis for which we are ill-prepared.

businessman said...

NB Patton...While I admire your desire and interest in having freedom of speech in here at all times and in all situations, I think kiki's reference to all of us sitting down to dinner together really resonates for me. What we have in here is like an extended family...dysfunctional at times, which is oftentimes like an extended family anyway.

I don't want to sit down to dinner with anyone, no matter how knowledgeable they are, who's constantly venting their anger and doing it by always screaming out streams of expletives in the process. That's what we were experiencing when that other person was participating in here.

Personally I'm OK with Jenna exercising her discretion to edit comments like those whenever she feels it's appropriate.

sunrnr said...


Arguing about flawed theories, percieved ignorance, etc. is indeed a distraction to the real problems we all face.

Face it, we're running out of oil, natural gas and coal. It started when humans figured out how to use hydrocarbons to cultivate and produce food, develop pharmaceuticals, develop internal combustion engines, heat and light their homes, etc.

Entire societies now are totally dependent on fossil fuels for their very existence. This wasn't so too long ago.

We procrastinate and live in denial that we're in real deep doo-doo with no real plan to extricate ourselves.

The need to change has to be there before real change can occur. For many, that need isn't obvious and may never be. For those of you that contribute so much to this blog, the need has been there for some time.

It does get very frustrating when you see the light, but those you around you don't and don't really seem to want to. All you can do is take care of yourself and your loved ones and aid others as you can.

Frankly I'm panicking. Not so much for me, but my wife and our 11 yo. I'm thinking now of the predictions given on about a sesmic event in the Northwest, especially now that we're experiencing very cold temperatures and heavy snows. That would bring the survival issue right up front real quick wouldn't it?

There are reports that the US Military is stepping up it's domestic training. In preparation for what?

I've read about concerns that the Internet is slowly being compromised and shut down(see link to urban survival above).
Check this link out and see the response, "Asus has revealed that the sales of Eee PC models pre-loaded with Linux have fallen dramatically following the availability of Windows XP versions. ..."

Bernake wants the remaining $350 Billion of TARP funds released. Where did the first $350 Billion go?

I'm with KiKi ... time to step back, take a deep breath and focus inward first to see who and what we are and then outward to help those of us who want to understand Be patient with those that think they do but don't.

We're all in this together. Thanks to all of you for helping to enlighten me and others. Please continue to use you substantial intellect and energy to prepare us rather than for arguing with and belittling each other.


redrosebeader said...

Mike, I hope you are getting some r+r! And I still agree that those who aren't up to our views on Peak Oil, 9/11 truth, War and Drugs as means of making the military/industrial/gov elite more wealthy, can read thru the archives and other sites on the web, library books, etc. No one can be educated who expects to learn from one person, one blog site, or one point of view.

Jenna, Thanks again for filtering those few things you do filter. As one who has been with ya'll awhile (I've been here since early 2003), I don't want to get cussed at by anyone. I CAN skim thru blogs that are patronizing, not logical, etc. And I don't mind opposing views, but I don't need to be lectured about Jesus or peak oil, etc. If I believe something strongly, I always read (well written) opposing views. Indeed, that's why I became an ex-christian at 40.

I am beginning to question that global climate change is not only mankind's fault, so I am studying that a bit. It's not high priority with my time, because not polluting our nests is still important. I'm just saying most of the bloggers seem to keep an open mind on issues when the evidence is there. Most of us wouldn't have supported FTW if we hadn't done our research to know that MCR is reliable. And I don't mind him reminding us current events are as he predicted them.

Andy Edwards said...

Well back to the 'everything is broken' theme: I'd say Mika Brzezinski's mugging is is only a step removed from Mexico's anti-kidnapper kidnapped, in respect to crystallized irony of course.

Mark said...

What motivates me to change is the knowing of a die off. But it is not effective. Neither is asking people to pick up their lives to eco nest. Peak oil, you aint seen nothing yet. Wait, I have the Evidence of the need to act by Geoff Lawton Edited. I could show it here in LA. Then you can see. Geoff the director of the permaculture institute of Australia, has received acclaim with TED and Paul Stamets. Have you all seen Stamets video on my front page yet? Geoff now represents the Mars family and Kellogs. The largest food distributors in the world are loosing their earth systems.

These GMO people are so scary. It equals Nazi what they have done. That is what has consumed my anger.

So what do I do? Leave for Venezuela? Mike would you please tell us your candor about Venezuela?
What was it like?

I have come to far. Did you know that the yearly working hours of a permaculture is 500. This is fun stuff. I am a music publisher. I could easily motivate myself in the matrix. But what has me so unhinged, is the knowing of how easy things can be with a solar pump and a few batteries. Geoff did a project for the Government of Australia. He did 15 grand of earth works that cost him 250 grand because of analysis paralysis. These permaculture design systems tend to themselves. Its not trophy gardening cargo culture. Its freaking intense food forestry. Scarcity is the only benefactor of profit.

One of the parts of my journey that made me freaking cry on the spot, was interviewing Harry MacCormack co founder of certification of Organics, Institute of Bio Wisdom in Corvalis Oregon, " You know Russell, I am old we have been locking down bio dynamics since the 70's. We know what to do, but the time line, that fractal implementation to get Organics into society has diminished to a catastrophic tipping point. We can not send our knowledge resources fast enough for the world to Transition. GMO criminal actions have been the death spiral catalyst. They just tried to unleash a plant that had an alcohol in it that could have wiped off plants on this planet. Ever hear of the soil food web? They saved us two days before the seed was unleashed. Monsanto and Cargyl are the bio terrorist.

Mike where did you hear that 2 to 4 billion people need to die to bring back a balance with natural patterns? Geoff thinks we need every person on earth to start regenerating the soil. Without us earth systems will fail. We made that much of a mess of things. The earth needs us bad. Emergency

Permageddon Ecosutra style :))

Michael said...

Mark wrote:

>>These GMO people are so scary. It equals Nazi what they have done. That is what has consumed my anger....<<

It equals Nazi?! Wow, wome of you people here are pretty imbalanced. Or maybe you are just drunk? Drink booze, post on blogs? Viva la Internet!

Get serious guys, learn how to make fire, collect rainwater, and hide out. Or just enjoy what you have left. Hedge your bets. Don't. But if you're going to philosophize, at least read a book or two instead of spending your time spazzing out on blogs. Low intellectual and practical value here. Blogs are little more than amateur magazines; books have better return. Heck, use your time to read or re-read CTR, why not. Chomsky. Wiggin. Casey. Heinberg. Toynbee (Zinn)! Survivalist books. The Boyscout handbook. Bible? Whatever... just keep the Nazi stuff to youself until you know what they were in the context of real history - rather than post-1970's propaganda.

Man, this "lifeboat" is gonna sink under the weight of such deliberation....

Mark said...

Shell shock. That is what is happening. I associate the politics of climate change to the politics of war. When you hear about an event in war for the first time, you can be sure those events happened many times before they were reported. Peak oil, climate change, they are nothing compared to the reality of a hybrid seedless world. I can live without oil, but I can not live without seeds. Sure there are organic seeds available. But not really. Seeds of Change are always on back order. So, when the system shuts down where will the people get their seeds? It sickens me that I have to counter attack Americans who deny the journey of leading scientists that I have interviewed.
I guess the shell shock of things is to hard to bear. I think the blog post of Michael(not MCR) and others, who can not receive the shell shock are corrupt in their own imperial perspective. But know this, I am editing all the evidence from Geoff Lawton, he has the evidence of earth systems failing. Has traveled to each location of failing systems. Michael, the blogger not MCR, and others like him are still in imperial denial. That is from a perspective of technology to maintain your beliefs to bridge you to somewhere modern. What a true believer to nowhere these dogs of imperial behavior are. Just call me crazy, that will make you feel powerful and you can sleep well tonight. I am not seeking validation. And yes Monsanto is a Nazi entity. What else do you call it? There is nothing more to the right than Nazi. Fascists? That's lesser than Nazi. I need a word to describe the horrors of American agriculture. Its Nazi "like"

tim said...

I can't even tell you about the Amish. Too frightening?